Homeschooling Answers with Israel Wayne
Israel Wayne is an esteemed author, conference speaker, and director of Family Renewal. Israel, alongside his wife Brooke, is both a homeschooling graduate and a parent to 11 children.
Summary:
Erin returns with a thought-provoking conversation featuring Israel Wayne, an esteemed author, conference speaker, and director of Family Renewal. Israel, alongside his wife Brooke, is both a homeschooling graduate and a parent to 11 children. In this episode, Israel dives into key insights from his book, "Answers for Homeschooling: Top 25 Questions Critics Ask."
Their discussion delves into the economic feasibility of homeschooling, addressing myths around costs, and emphasizing the spiritual and practical support available for families considering this educational path. Israel challenges common perceptions, highlighting the importance of developing a biblical theology of education and resisting government control over homeschooling.
Links & Resources:
Find Israel Wayne and additional homeschool resources at www.familyrenewal.org
Facebook, facebook.com/FamilyRenewal
Twitter, twitter.com/IsraelWayne
Instagram, instagram.com/FamilyRenewal
For speaking engagements, visit israelwayne.com
To purchase Israel Wayne's books, visit his store at familyrenewal.org/store
Show Me Homeschool listeners can get an additional 10% at the Family Renewal Store off by using the code, 10off
The Answers for Homeschooling – Christian Education Bundle includes the books mentioned in today's episode: "Education: Does God Have an Opinion?" and "Answers for Homeschooling: Top 25 Questions Critics Ask"
The Family Renewal podcast can be found wherever you listen to podcasts or on YouTube at Family Renewal, LLC Podcast
For your state's law on homeschooling, visit Homeschool Legal Defense Association, hslda.org. To find your state homeschooling association, visit homeschoolfreedom.com
Connect with Erin & Joe at Show Me Homeschool:
On Instagram, @show.me.homeschool
On X, @ShowMeHomeSch
On Pinterest, @showmehomeschool
Be sure to leave a rating and review, and subscribe so you never miss an episode! For questions or comments email us: info@showmehomeschool.com
Transcript:
Erin [00:00:00]:
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Show Me Homeschool podcast. We've taken quite, an extended break in recording, but I'm really happy to have the guest on that I have today, and that is Israel Wayne. He is an author, a conference speaker, and director of family renewal. He and his wife, Brooke, both homeschool graduates, live in Southwest Michigan, and are homeschooling parents of 11 children.
Erin [00:00:28]:
I'm Erin.
Joe [00:00:29]:
And I'm Joe.
Erin [00:00:29]:
We're the hosts of the Show Me Homeschool podcast, where we guide parents through the wilderness of home education. Each weekly episode will focus on supporting and encouraging home homeschool moms and dads through conversational interviews with like minded Christian leaders in the homeschool community.
Joe [00:00:46]:
In our experience, we've seen the lack of resources and support available for homeschool dads. So we want to address that by covering relevant topics concerning husbands and fathers as they lead their families through this lifestyle of home education.
Erin [00:00:59]:
We understand the need for creating connections and building authentic relationships to sustain a healthy homeschool environment for yourself and your
Joe [00:01:08]:
children. Our goal is not to show you how to replicate our homeschool, but to show you how you can create a home learning lifestyle that is sustainable for your family.
Erin [00:01:16]:
Show Me Homeschool is here to come alongside you.
Erin [00:01:24]:
Israel, welcome to the Show Me Homeschool podcast.
Israel Wayne [00:01:27]:
Well, thank you, Erin. It's a blessing to be on your show.
Erin [00:01:29]:
Yeah. I'm really excited that we've connected and you are willing to join us in this conversation today about your book, answers for homeschooling, top 25 questions critics ask because, you know, with this resurgence of the interest in homeschooling after COVID, I think there are a lot of people who don't know the history of homeschooling. Don't understand the direction that it's it's going, and your book is a wonderful resource. So, do you wanna tell us a little bit more about your book and what, made you decide to write it?
Israel Wayne [00:02:01]:
Well, as you said, I was homeschooled myself. My mother started homeschooling my older sister and myself in 1978, which was about five years before the modern homeschooling movement began. And then in 1988, she began publishing a national homeschool magazine. So I grew up not only being homeschooled, but grew up in kind of the early phases of the Christian homeschool publishing industry. And, spent twenty years of my professional life, working as marketing director for that, homeschool magazine. I wrote my first book on homeschooling in February. I actually started doing conference speaking at homeschool conferences in 1995. So I've been doing that for over thirty years now.
Israel Wayne [00:02:41]:
So my whole professional life, as well as my personal life, has been tied up in homeschooling. It's been something that I have, been deeply committed to on an ideological level. And I received so much from, not just homeschooling, but from kind of the homeschool movement and homeschool community that, I've wanted to give back. And I felt like we were at a time period where there's so many new homeschoolers and such an influx of new young homeschoolers who are looking for information. And they're the primary place that they tend to go to ask questions is social media, but I admin a lot of different, Facebook groups and pages online, and, and some Instagram stuff.
Israel Wayne [00:03:19]:
And, you know, so I, I hang out a lot on social media and a lot of the information that is given out there, sometimes very authoritatively is wrong. It's it's not factually accurate. You know, it's it's misleading. It's ill informed. And so I think there is a sense in which the the younger millennials and and gen Z, they kind of resent the idea of experts. And they like the idea of the world being kind of flat and egalitarian, that everybody's opinion is equal to everybody else's opinion. So there's a little bit of a postmodern mindset that goes along with that. But I I do think that, there's value in younger, newer homeschoolers as you're trying to plug into resources, even if that's the the older homeschool family in your local co op that's been doing it for twenty years, and just get wisdom from people who actually, you know, have been doing this for more than eighteen months.
Erin [00:04:13]:
Yeah. Well, I love the way that you start the book out addressing the reliability of the source because, like you touched on, I think we hang out in some of the same online spaces. And from some of the conversations that I see, or some of the, you know, with Instagram, the influencers that we see, you know, when I see parents that are taking what they say is gospel and truth and how you are, are at home educate your children, and then you go and flip through their pictures and they have a two year old and a four year old. I'm thinking, okay, well, that's the source that we're looking at for for the the inspiration. And it really is not a realistic picture of what homeschooling is like. So I love the way that you systematically start these 25 questions and appreciate the history of homeschool that you lay out in the beginning of the book, which is part of the problem today is that most people don't understand the history of the modern homeschool movement. Can you touch on that a little bit?
Israel Wayne [00:05:03]:
So briefly, a lot of people don't realize that in the late nineteen seventies, early '19 eighties, there were a lot of families who were being arrested, handcuffed, taken to jail, and threatened with having their children forcibly removed from them and put into foster care and even having their parental rights terminated simply because they were trying to teach their own children in their own home. There were compulsory attendance laws in almost every state in The United States, at that time. And it said you have to be in a state recognized brick and mortar school. There wasn't really a separate exemption for homeschooling in most states. And so there were legal battles that ended up being fought and a lot of brave families and groups like Homeschool Legal Defense Association and State Homeschooling Associations that sprang up to help defend the rights of parents to teach their children. And, you know, really, the state in which I live, Michigan is one of the, later states to actually legalize homeschooling. We didn't really become fully legal, with homeschooling till 1996. So, you know, this is a very new phenomenon, this this new reinvention of homeschooling.
Israel Wayne [00:06:05]:
I always say homeschooling is as old as the family. In the beginning, there was a man and his wife who lived in a garden, had some kids, and homeschooled.
Erin [00:06:12]:
Right.
Israel Wayne [00:06:12]:
But the the new iteration of it is is a pretty new phenomenon. And so we wanted to be able to in the book, Answers for Homeschooling, to be able to provide, a bit of an overview of where we've been and kinda where we're going and and help to get people grounded in some some fact based information rather than just, emotive feelings or or biases that because most of the opinions people have about homeschooling are are uninformed biases that they've picked up somewhere, you know, in their life. And thankfully, we have research on most of the questions that people ask about homeschooling. So rather than just having it be my opinion versus your opinion, I like to be able to appeal to some objective metric.
Erin [00:06:50]:
Right. And I think it's important too as Christian homeschoolers, or people that are believers that we we do look at that. And and the cost of homeschooling. You know, the second point that you really kind of touch on a lot is the funding and where the money is coming from. So a lot of Christian parents said, I think you said 7% and some of that's based off the narrow research that was done, that Christian parents would homeschool their children or put them in private education that's Christian based if they had the money to do that. And so you kinda bust up a couple of myths here if you wanna touch on the funding piece and how much it actually costs to homeschool.
Israel Wayne [00:07:24]:
Yeah. Well, a lot of people say that, you know, homeschooling is the most expensive well, let's say private school is the most expensive and then homeschooling and then public school, and public school is free. Well, government schools are not free. In fact, they are the most expensive way to educate a child. National average, we're you know, it fluctuates a lot by state, but we're we're quickly closing in on $20,000 a year per child, in the public school system. And, private schools now are about $12,500 per year. Homeschooling, it varies because, you can go with video curriculum or full online curriculum, which sometimes is more costly than traditional textbook. But if you buy a homeschool package that's, like, fifth grade in a box, you're gonna spend somewhere probably between about 800 to $1,800 if you're buying new per per child per year.
Israel Wayne [00:08:17]:
But lots of families have found ways to, spend considerably less than that by buying their textbooks used or by, using resources from the library or, you know, buying, at, a discount when the company has the best sale of the year, you know, those kinds of things. And homeschoolers can be notoriously frugal. But you're really, you're looking at a tenth of the cost to homeschool as opposed to every child in the government schools. And by comparison, academically, homeschoolers have for forty plus years been academically superior in standardized achievement tests to, both private schools and particularly public schools. And so you get a better educational outcome for a tenth of the cost. So from a an economic standpoint, it really makes the most sense to privatize education and put the control back where it's best suited in the hands of the parents. Right.
Erin [00:09:06]:
And I I am active at the state level as well, with our nonprofit, Missouri Homeschool Alliance, and we've testified a lot in the hearings for Senate or the House when they're introducing these school choice legislation pieces. You know, while these kids are entitled to the $7,000 or whatever it is that each state has said that they're gonna allot to fund as a private or home educated child. And what I like to tell them is if you have a library card, access to nature and internet, you have more at your fingertips than our founding fathers did when it comes to sources of information. So it does not cost. And so to operate on this premise that educating a homeschool child is thousands and thousands of dollars is just false. It's a bad way to start your argument when, you know, I, my experience is the same. I think in the book is that the average is like $600 per year per student for homeschool. And, and I would say that that's probably pretty accurate for what, what we've done.
Erin [00:09:58]:
I really like this quote, in your book that says the main issue is one of the heart. Are you totally committed to the concept of giving your children an exclusively Christian education? If so, God will show himself strong on your behalf. So would you want to maybe speak to the Christian, parent that has not chosen homeschool or has held back maybe because they, they have fears or concerns that God would not provide for that, that choice that they're gonna make?
Israel Wayne [00:10:26]:
Yeah. My experience is one that gave me, I think the impetus for writing what I did there about God meeting your needs because not only did my homeschooling experience happen entirely when it was against the law, I graduated from homeschooling in 1991. And as I said, homeschooling didn't really become legal in the state in which I lived until after that. But my mother in my teen years became a single parent. And so she was trying to homeschool myself and my five sisters, six children, at a time when not only was homeschooling not legal, it was being pretty universally condemned by pastors and churches. They used to tell us that we were sinning by not going to the public school, if you can imagine that. I have a whole another book I wrote called Education, Does God Have an Opinion? A wish theological view. Education that that sort of talks about how ridiculous it is that pastors and church leaders would would take the position that government should be in control of education, you know, because biblically, it's very fallacious.
Israel Wayne [00:11:23]:
But but my mom is a single parent. You know, she had a hundred dollars a month in child support. She had no income initially. Mhmm. And she was trying to figure out how do I teach these six kids and how do I feed them? And And my mom became a Christian when I was 12. And one of the things that she said to us early on when she became a believer is she said, I really I've been reading the Bible and I really believe that God does not want us to take government money. She said, I see in the Bible where it says that God is the husband to the widow and the father to the fatherless. And she said, I believe God is going to provide for us, that God is gonna take care of us.
Israel Wayne [00:12:01]:
God is gonna meet our needs. And so she said, I've made a commitment that we are no longer going to be on welfare. We're no longer gonna take food stamps. We are going to trust God to provide for us. And I remember her my initial response was something like, well, great. Well, I guess we're gonna starve. Oh. I was not a fan of that mindset at that time.
Israel Wayne [00:12:22]:
And she started that homeschool magazine shortly after that and got developed that into a very successful publishing business. And she was able to stick at home and raise six children and homeschool them as a single parent, and have have a revenue stream that was not really on the table for her because my mom, didn't even finish high school. My mom my mom dropped out of high school in ninth grade. So, you know, when people will talk about, well, I'm not qualified to homeschool, I I think when you look at what my mother was up against being a a high school dropout single parent mom trying to homeschool when everybody was against you and it was against the law. I don't think most people have it that bad. I don't think most people's situation is that difficult. You know, for most people, you know, they're living in a median income, you know, suburban, two car family with a big screen TV and cable internet every month. And you know what I'm saying? Like, for them, it's that there's a certain lifestyle that they want to protect and that they want to be able to have discretionary income and take the family vacation every year.
Israel Wayne [00:13:28]:
And what I've learned is that it really comes down to conviction. The thing that made it different for my mother was that she closed a door and she was committed to never again, opening that door. And she, she made a commitment that my children will never again attended a government school ever. And having closed that door, she just refused to open it. Even multiple times being dragged into court and facing, you know, having jail time and having your kids taken away. She just had a conviction about it. And it is amazing how if you have a conviction and you just decide this is no longer an option, how things will work out, particularly if you're looking to God. Right?
Erin [00:14:08]:
Right.
Israel Wayne [00:14:09]:
And and so the question is, does God want your children to have a Christian education? Does God want your children to be raised in the fear of the Lord? Does he want them to have a biblical worldview? Or does he want them to be raised with a humanistic, anti Christian worldview being taught in a government school? And and again, I think you have to have a theology, not just an opinion on that. Right. Again, back to that education is God have an opinion book. And so if you have a conviction that this is something that you must do, it's amazing how God will miraculously provide time and time again. And I won't go through all the stories of ways that that happened in our family, but you'll have your own. And God will you know, it's it's kinda like I think it was William Carey, the missionary, who said that God's work done God's way will never lack God's provision. And God does not call you to something and then fail to provide for you.
Erin [00:15:05]:
Right.
Israel Wayne [00:15:05]:
He doesn't commission you to something and then go, oh, okay. Well, I didn't think that through. You know, God is not poor. God has all the money in the universe at his disposal, and he can redirect that any which way he wants to. So he wants you to homeschool your children, which I believe he does, and you're willing to walk in obedience to that, you will find a path. I'm a % convinced of that. I think at the end of the day, I think for most parents, the bottom line is they don't want to homeschool their children.
Erin [00:15:35]:
Mhmm.
Israel Wayne [00:15:36]:
They just don't want to. It it's an immense amount of of time, and it's some cost financially, particularly if you choose to live on a single income. And so, you know, that is a sacrifice. And most parents don't wanna make the sacrifice. They don't wanna be home with their kids all day. They don't wanna have to be the person who's teaching their child from the time that they rise up to the time that they go to sleep, you know, when they're sitting in their house and when they're walking outside their house. They don't wanna be that person. They would rather have almost anybody else do that.
Israel Wayne [00:16:08]:
And so what they do is they have this whole list of excuses of why they don't wanna homeschool and why they or why they can't. And and and I'm more I guess I I'm just I respect somebody more when they're just honest about it and just say, you know what? You can talk to me till you're blue in the face. And at the end of the day, I don't wanna homeschool my kids. Okay. Fair enough. Like, you're the parent. I get that. Right.
Israel Wayne [00:16:30]:
But so many of the objections that people raise of, you know, well, I'm not qualified or, you know, what about socialization or shouldn't my children be in the public school to be missionaries and evangelists, to be salt and light? It's and most of it, honestly, is smokescreen. And that's why I put that statistic in the book that seventy seven percent of evangelical Christians say that they would give their child a Christian education if they could get somebody else to pay for it.
Erin [00:16:55]:
Mhmm.
Israel Wayne [00:16:56]:
And, I remember the late Larry Burkett, who used to teach on Christian financial concepts. He he said something like this. He said, I can tell you what you value. I can tell you what you love, and I can tell you what you worship by looking at two things, your calendar and your checkbook. Mhmm.
Erin [00:17:11]:
That's
Israel Wayne [00:17:11]:
Because that's your life.
Erin [00:17:13]:
Right.
Israel Wayne [00:17:13]:
That's how you spend your life. How you allocate your time and your resources is how you spend your life. And so we say things like my children are number one priority to me. But, you know, the average parent in The United States, the average mom in The United States spends an hour a day with her child interacting with her child. And the average dad is twenty nine minutes. That's from the US Department of Labor Statistics twenty twenty two.
Erin [00:17:39]:
That's really sad.
Israel Wayne [00:17:40]:
Twenty nine minutes for dads, an hour for moms. Those same parents, they spend four hours every night of their life watching TV or Netflix. And kids grow up knowing how to do the math. They know that they are not the priority. You know, I talked to so many homes so many dads, sorry, just dads, Christian dads, who say, oh, we can't afford to homeschool. But I'll tell you what, that dad sure finds money to buy a boat. He sure finds money to buy guns. He sure finds money to go to football games at a hundred bucks a a ticket.
Israel Wayne [00:18:10]:
Right. What it really comes down to is priority. And so if your children are not your primary priority, then you'll find other ways to spend that money. But if it really is a conviction for you that you are responsible for raising your children, not somebody else, and you take that seriously, like I said, you'll find a path.
Erin [00:18:31]:
Yeah. I agree with all all points listed there. I think that we're seeing that, shift within the homeschool culture. You know, we're like you said in the book, when it started, it was mostly Caucasian. Evangelicals are very, you know, fundamentalist Christians. And now we're seeing such a diversification within the homeschool community, not just with people who are convicted, but, you know, in, in our own local community, we see people who are quote homeschooling, that they just pulled their kid because they don't want them in public school, but they're gonna find two and three and four day a week programs to educate their children and call it homeschooling them when it's really public school at home. When, you know, when you start peeling back the layers of what do you mean by homeschool? And I think definitions are important. So as someone who's been in the homeschool community for as long as you have, what are some concerns that you have with the direction that culture is shifting towards? Or how how do you circumvent those things tearing apart the homeschool community?
Israel Wayne [00:19:30]:
Well, one shift that has taken place the Washington Post is wrong about almost everything. But there's one stat that I do believe. They said that prior to COVID, that sixty four percent of homeschoolers said they were doing so for religious reasons. And now post COVID, it's only thirty four percent. So we've effectively gone from two thirds of all homeschoolers doing so for religious reasons to only one third. That's a massive demographic shift in five years from a two thirds majority to a one third minority. Now to be clear, I'm in favor of all parents teaching their children their own values regardless of what their religion or non religion is. So I I like to see, any and all parents taking responsibility for the education of their child.
Israel Wayne [00:20:17]:
It's safer. It's a better academic outcome. Like I'm for everybody homeschooling. But, as someone who has a Christian faith, what I see now is is there's a shift taking place in the homeschool community where there's a hostility towards, those who are conservative Christian homeschoolers. In fact, just recently, I was trying to join a, an inclusive homeschool Facebook group in my state, and I was denied because they could see on my profile that I was Christian, which makes me question their definition of more inclusive.
Erin [00:20:47]:
Right. Exactly.
Israel Wayne [00:20:49]:
So so that's just, you know, that's a demographic shift that I think is is important to note. You know? And and, again, I'm glad that all those families are homeschooling, but but it has changed the dynamic. But then with that has come a lot of people who aren't homeschooling, as you said, for any kind of conviction. They're not homeschooling for religious reasons. They the main reasons people homeschool right now, the the number one reason is safety. Mhmm. And that kinda has three different subcategories. It's bullying, it is school shootings, and it's sexual abuse on school campuses.
Israel Wayne [00:21:21]:
So those three things are, like, subcategories of the safety issue, but that's the primary number one reason that people are choosing to homeschool right now in The United States. And, again, that's not bad. Like, I get it. Homeschooling is safer, so I want children to be safe. So I'm thankful for all those children who who get out of those schools and become safe. But with those parents, comes a bit of so a public school mindset where they they have an entitlement mindset, if I can just be direct and blunt, that they view it as I have a fundamental right to have my child's education paid for with other people's money.
Erin [00:21:56]:
Mhmm.
Israel Wayne [00:21:56]:
And so their view is that this is the government's responsibility to raise my child, to to do day care, to pay for their lunches, to, you know, provide all of their health care, to, you know, give them free college. You know, like, that that's just the mentality. It's the prevailing viewpoint. And so, a lot of these newer homeschoolers, they actually want government regulation. They want government oversight. Funding. They want government intrusion into the home. For those of us who come from more of the old school, mentality, the reason we got out of the government system is we didn't like the way they were doing things.
Israel Wayne [00:22:31]:
We thought we could do it better. And I'm gonna remind people the only way that you have the autonomy to teach what you want in the way you want is when you pay for it yourself. And so definitely having the mentality that that we're owed something and kinda going to the government with our handout saying, gimme gimme gimme, it ends up putting us in shackles because the government controls whatever it pays for. And so it really is a backdoor Trojan horse to the homeschool community when people want what's, you know, very kindly labeled as school choice. Right? That just how could you be against choice? Choice is a great thing. Right? But but really what they mean by that is they mean that we should subsidize not only public schools, we should subsidize private schools and homeschools as well. And the problem with that is there's only two islands of educational freedom left in The United States, and that's privately funded private schools and privately funded homeschools. And as soon as they stop being privately funded, they're no longer islands of freedom.
Israel Wayne [00:23:27]:
Right. Now you have just completed a government monopoly, a government takeover of the two private sectors that were left. And now you're back to having the government monopoly that my parents and my parents' generation fought so hard to break away from. So it's just terribly shortsighted. And, again, it it kinda comes back to people not really understanding economics, not understanding history. I believe not understanding a biblical theology of what is the role of government, what's the role of the family, who's supposed to be in charge of education. There's a lot of issues on the table there.
Erin [00:23:58]:
Right. Preach on. I love it. I am saying the same thing. I'm trying to spread that alarm, for people because, like you said, these people that are pulling out of the public school now, I think Heidi St. John said something like they're they're not running to something, you know, where the the pioneers in the movement were running towards freedom and, in that educational choice for their kids. And now you've got refugees who are coming in from the public school into the homeschool market and community. So as someone who is in the public square, I guess, of homeschool and the market, you know, with curriculum and those kinds of things, are you seeing a shift because of the tax funding dollars in the homeschool market? Like, say publishers are now leaning towards more secular or religion neutral type materials.
Erin [00:24:44]:
What are you seeing in the market that way for homeschoolers to find resources that are truly Christian?
Israel Wayne [00:24:49]:
In many states that have introduced education savings account bills, ESA bills, they have an approved list of vendors. So you can only buy curriculum that's on their approved list and certain states will exclude materials that have Christian content. And so again, you know, how much choice do you actually have in that? It's like, okay, now you have the government choices. Right. And then the other thing that it does, which a lot of people don't think about is anytime the government floods the market with money, it creates inflation. And so I just heard of a situation in Arizona. They've had ESAs for about three years where there was a curriculum that was being sold in 2023 for $1,800 And the next year, the vendor became approved to accept government ESA dollars, and they blew the price up the same curriculum to $8,000
Erin [00:25:41]:
Oh, wow.
Israel Wayne [00:25:41]:
So from 1,800 to 8,000 in one year, because that's what the government was willing to pay for it. So now let's say that you're a private homeschooling family and you liked that curriculum and you wanted to buy it. Maybe you could afford 1,800, but you're not likely to be able to afford $8,000, particularly not if you have multiple children.
Erin [00:25:58]:
Right. Not at all.
Israel Wayne [00:25:59]:
What's your choice? Now your choice is that you have to use the government subsidy if you get it at all. So did it create more choice? No. It actually just drove up inflation in the marketplace. And so, you know, quickly, I think you can look at what's happened in health care and higher education. The reason that in the nineteen fifties, you could pay to for your own surgery or for your own higher education, was because it was more privatized. And now with the government infusing all of this money, the cost has gone up so high that the only way you can afford to pay your health care or to go to college is by taking government subsidies.
Erin [00:26:32]:
Right.
Israel Wayne [00:26:32]:
And so what does that do? It creates its government dependency, which is the goal. Mhmm. And so I I think we can see just in those two industries, how it really did not help in the long term. It did not help the marketplace. It just created massive inflation and did not create more choice. It just created more government dependency.
Erin [00:26:51]:
Yeah. It's it's kind of a divide and conquer situation here within the homeschool community because you have homeschoolers that are willing to take the vouchers, the traditional, I would I would say the traditional homeschoolers that are absolutely not. We want privately funded, parent directed, family focused education for our children. Do you see that maybe those families will then kind of go back towards where you started as a homeschooler, where it was more parent directed co ops and things where it's just truly a tight knit smaller group of people? Or how do you see that, that floating out in the homeschool communities?
Israel Wayne [00:27:23]:
What I've seen historically is it's almost impossible to compete with, quote, unquote, free. Mhmm. And and there's nothing free about it. Like, the thing that people don't understand is the public schools are gonna get funded, and the state has a certain budget allocated for their state that goes to the government schools. And and they're not in most cases, they're never gonna lower that. Like, they'll just find more things to spend, more more computers, more infrastructure, more programs, whatever. So if they spend, you know, a hundred and whatever, I don't know, $18,000,000,000 a year, whatever it is. Right? They're they're not gonna lower that.
Israel Wayne [00:27:56]:
That's you're gonna spend that in taxes to pay for that. What they're talking about doing is adding exponentially more money to pay for private schools and homeschools. Like, in one year's time, the, cost for the ESAs in Arizona shot to about a billion dollars a year to subsidize the homeschoolers. Three quarters of those were people who were currently homeschooling, and and not people in the public schools. So only 25% went to people who were in the public schools. And most of them, it turns out, were higher income families who who didn't even really need the subsidies. You know? They they just wanted the money because they could get it. Anyway, yeah, I think that, that what ends up happening is that the families will take the money for the most part.
Israel Wayne [00:28:40]:
There are very few people who are principled. And I I think that historically, people just, you know, if they see something that says free, they wanna go for that. I mean, Florida, I I just read was they're spending 4,000,000,000 a year that is costing taxpayers in Florida additional to the public school budget for these ESA programs. So people keep saying, well, you know, it's moving power away from the government schools. It's it's breaking their back. It's, you know, disempowering the NEA. It's doing none of that. It's not.
Israel Wayne [00:29:07]:
And what it's doing is it's expanding government control over private schools and homeschools, which are the two sectors they don't have control over yet. And so it as I said, it is a Trojan horse, and I I just encourage people to, in in fact, there's an art there's a an article that's a series of articles on my website if somebody wants to look into this a little more. If you go to familyrenewal.org and just type in school choice, there'll be an article that pops up, and there's, like, multiple, multiple links and articles and videos and stuff in that one blog. And so just familyrenewal.org, type in in the search engine, you know, type in school choice. It'll take you to a bunch of links that'll help to give you more information on why school choice is not good for conservatives.
Erin [00:29:46]:
I really appreciate all the work and the effort that you've done in regards to school choice and trying to sound the alarm for people. We're trying to educate in our state as well. And, you know, unless you are deep into it and you look past the school choice, you know, choice is a great thing. Why why would we be against that? Well, it's not really school choice. We've started calling it, education welfare, essentially. Right up. So you touched a little bit to move off that topic for a second here about the the salt and light. You know, as as Christian homeschoolers, I hear a lot of Christians who are saying, you know, well, I would I I could never do what you do.
Erin [00:30:23]:
This is in your book too, The Salt and Light. You know, well, my kid is a salt and light in in the public school. It's a dark place, and and they're there as missionaries. What do you have to say about, Jesus' education and how that's an example for how we should be educating our own children as believers.
Israel Wayne [00:30:40]:
Right. Well, I have two different chapters, on Salt and Light. One in my education, does god have an opinion book, and one in answers. And I I take two totally different paths. In the Answers for Homeschooling book, I talk about Jesus' education, and I think I can demonstrate very definitively that Jesus was not raised in a government school because god's people never sent their children to government schools, particularly not heathen schools. But they but there's this myth that pastors promote all the time that, in Jesus' day, the Jewish boys all went to Jewish synagogue schools and so forth. And I actually researched that, and I talk about that in Answers for Homeschooling. That's a myth.
Israel Wayne [00:31:15]:
There were three years in Israel where, they tried to institute compulsory attendance for boys, and it was 8067 to 8070, and Jerusalem was destroyed in 8070. But Jesus was absolutely homeschooled. And and, you know, if anybody was qualified to be a missionary and evangelist in a government school, it would have been Jesus. But his parents kept him home and homeschooled him. And I think also it's important for us to look at the research again, where we've been doing this experiment for the last seventy years. Christians have been saying we need to send our children as missionaries and evangelists to the public schools. But what does the evidence say? What does the research demonstrate? We have very conclusive evidence that what's happening is our Christian youth are being evangelized into atheism and agnosticism. And seventy percent of all churched youth are denying their Christian faith before they finish high school in government schools.
Israel Wayne [00:32:08]:
Three different studies, Lifeway, Nehemiah Institute, and, Barna. Those three show that seventy percent. And those are three independent studies that came up with that number, completely deny their faith before they finish high school. And then with the Pierce test from Nehemiah Institute and then the Barna research, it looks like there's about six percent of churched youth who go through K-twelve and government schools, go to a secular university, graduate from that, still having, a basic biblical worldview intact. So if you go through twelve years of government schooling and then state college or university education, statistically, there's a ninety four percent chance that you are gonna graduate having an anti Christian worldview. 94% chance. So the idea that, oh, well, we're just winning millions and millions to Jesus in the public schools, there's no evidence that that's happening.
Erin [00:33:03]:
Right.
Israel Wayne [00:33:03]:
There are no studies. There are zero studies that show that the salt and light method works, in terms of children being evangelists. And the reason for that is they are not the missionaries. They're the mission field. Right. And I explained that more, in my books why that's the case.
Erin [00:33:19]:
I think that those are all really solid points. I really encourage anyone listening to pick up both of those books that Israel is talking about because you know what the answers book, I just, every single thing that I've heard as an argument against homeschooling, especially within the Christian community. And I'm looking at the way that you've laid that out. It's just very, you know, here's a biblical stance. Here's evidence of that. Here's the research from even non biblical sources, but that, that show that the Bible is accurate and what God is trying to communicate to Christian parents here. And so what do you think is the catalyst for Christian families to have decided that the public education system is, you know, is the place their kids should go by and large.
Israel Wayne [00:34:05]:
Convenience. Yeah. It really is. It just comes down to it's easier. And the fact is we all want our own life. We want our free time. We want our discretionary money, and it really comes down to we love ourselves more than we love our kids. Mhmm.
Israel Wayne [00:34:20]:
And and that sounds harsh.
Erin [00:34:22]:
It does.
Israel Wayne [00:34:23]:
But I've been doing it a long, long time. I I don't say that flippantly. I don't say that just off the cuff.
Erin [00:34:28]:
Right.
Israel Wayne [00:34:29]:
I really believe at the end of the day that Christian parents, for the most part, are confessional Christians, and they are functional humanists. They the way they live their life is no different than non Christians. There's almost nothing that separates the way they live from non Christians other than that they go to church every once in a while and, you know, maybe give a small offering every once in a while at church, and maybe five minutes a day in a devotional. But functionally, there's just no difference. And so I mean, it really comes down to, I think, an issue of submission to the lordship of Jesus Christ that they have to become convinced that no one else has been given the responsibility to teach or disciple their children, even academically. And that that's something, again, I point out in the Education Does God Have an Opinion book that God even commands Christian parents in the New Testament to teach their children academics, not just spiritual principles. They are responsible for the academics, and no one else is. God never commanded the church to teach children, and he never commanded the government to teach children.
Israel Wayne [00:35:30]:
You know, the only people in the entire Bible commanded to teach children are parents, and in a couple of verses, grandparents. Yeah. So the entire weight of responsibility for, the academic education and the spiritual formation of children is entirely squarely on the shoulders of parents, but people are ignorant of the scripture. They don't have a biblical theology of what the Bible says about the issue, and you can't obey what you don't know. And And their pastors aren't teaching it because their pastors don't know. And so we really have to develop a biblical theology of education.
Erin [00:36:01]:
Yeah. I love the quote, that says homeschooling is parenting with academics because really that's what it is. So in chapter 10, you talked about homeschoolers being good citizens, and then you clarify, you know, who's defining what a citizen is and, you know, what is a good citizen? And you outlined several key points. Do you wanna touch on some of those points about Christian, children that are homeschooled and and their citizenship and what they're involved in?
Israel Wayne [00:36:30]:
Well, the socialization question really ties in with the citizen question because the argument that if you homeschool your children, they won't be well socialized is leading somewhere. If you say, so what? Who cares? Then they there's a follow-up, and they'll say, well, they won't know how to interface in society. They won't know how to be contributors. They won't know how to hold down a job. They won't know how to relate to people in the real world. There's just be these antisocial misfits. So so that socialization argument is actually sort of a precursor to the deeper issue of will homeschoolers be good citizens. And one of the definitive studies on that that was done by doctor Brian Ray with National Home Education Research Institute.
Israel Wayne [00:37:06]:
It was a survey called Homeschooling Grows Up, and it was 8,000 students who had been homeschooled for seven years or more. So the predominant educational experience was in the home with their parents. And it compared what they were doing as adults to students who had gone to private schools and public schools. And so when you ask the question of what is a good citizen, turned out that at almost every metric, homeschoolers were more positively engaged socially than their public and private school counterparts. So they were more likely to read books. They were more likely to be aware of what was happening politically and socially, more likely to vote, more likely to participate in the political process through helping candidates get elected or even running for political office themselves, more likely to statistically have a college degree, not numerically because there are less homeschoolers, but statistically higher likelihood of having a college degree, more likely to own their own business than be an employee, less likely to have ever been arrested, less likely to do drugs or have that alcohol or substance abuse dependency issues, more likely to give money to charitable causes, more likely to donate their time for community service, more likely to be involved in, a church or religious community. You just go across the board and you say, well, what what makes a good citizen? All those things that I just mentioned, homeschoolers are the most positively socially engaged of any of the schooling groups, and the people who are the least positively socially engaged are those who go to government schools. And so this argument that, you know, you have to have your kids in a public school for them to know how to be properly socialized is completely fallacious.
Israel Wayne [00:38:48]:
And, again, I talk about that in my books. Like, who created the 30 to 40 student classroom and said that this is a normal way to be? Like, let's take 30 to 40 students all the same age, throw them all in one classroom, and tell them to to learn and together and socialize. Right? Who created that, and why did they create that? I think those are very important questions, that we need to ask. And and the cheat sheet on that is it was socialist and social engineers, who wanted to create peer dependency and break children away from their parents. And I gotta read the books to kinda get the the background on that. But Yeah. But nowhere in life in the real world do you ever go into an environment where they're like, okay. So how old are you? Oh, you're 35.
Israel Wayne [00:39:26]:
Okay. Well, you're gonna be working on the Twelfth Floor of our building because that's where all the 35 year olds. This is not the real world. The only place you find that artificial environment is in the school system. So it does not equip you for being able to interact with people of all ages in the real world. Homeschooling does that because as a homeschooler, you are exposed to multiple ages on multiple different social environments. And so it's actually a far better, far superior social experience.
Erin [00:39:53]:
Yeah. We've experienced that ourselves. We, especially since 2020 have gotten politically active in our own personal lives and, you know, starting a nonprofit where, you know, you just you see things, you hear things. And, our seven year old, you know, she goes with us door knocking and campaigning for people. And it is just interesting to see her talking about different amendments or we'll be in conversation and she's talking about, is that amendment, whatever? She knows more than most adults at seven years old on what's happening in the political realm and is paying attention and asking questions. And, and it's not just in my family. I see that with the larger homeschool community that we're a part of, there is, like you said, in your book, so many, parents that are raising citizens that are mindful of what's happening, not just in their own homes, but in the community at large, whether that's volunteering at elderly, living facilities or doing some sort of community service, getting active in the political realm, paying attention, being registered voters. So, yeah, that's that's all fantastic that you have included that aspect of it because it is important to look at first off who's defining the terms that we're using and then what is the actual definition that they're using.
Erin [00:41:03]:
So another part of the book that you talk about is school versus education. And when you talk about the public school system, it's kind of a heads, I win, tails, you lose kind of thing. Or basically, if it if the parent is homeschooling and they're not doing a great job, it's parents' fault. And if the kid's doing crappily at school or, you know, bad at school, that's also the parents' fault because they're not working with them afterwards. Do you wanna talk a little bit about those double standards that we see when people are so concerned about how homeschooled children are, performing or
Israel Wayne [00:41:33]:
You know, it's interesting. I was reading an article recently that said that in the colonial era of America, there was almost no illiteracy. And we've had government schools since about 1852. Horace Mann introduced them in Massachusetts. And since 1900, almost every state has had compulsory attendance law. So government school system around the time of the end of the civil war to about 1900, you know, really took over the country. And now, 54% of Americans, that's the majority, 54% read at a sixth grade level or less. Wow.
Israel Wayne [00:42:08]:
And, you know, people don't realize this, but they say we have to have the government schools because everybody will be illiterate. You know, how how can we have a functional society if we don't have government schools? What did we do before Karl Marx? What did we do before Horace Mann? Right? We were extremely well educated. And I tell people, if you don't think that that people were better educated in the colonial times than now, go find a a book called The Federalist Papers that was written in the colonial era for the common person. Read that book and tell me what it means. That's a tough one. Well, clearly, see, we are not smarter. Right. Than the average person during the colonial era.
Israel Wayne [00:42:43]:
We've actually been dumbed down. And in in my state, of Michigan, they introduced legislation last year to try to regulate homeschooling. And the argument was, we don't know if these kids are learning anything.
Israel Wayne [00:42:57]:
There could be homeschool kids who are below grade level.
Israel Wayne [00:43:00]:
My argument to the media and to the legislature was, here's what we do know in Michigan, that only 28% of public school students in the Michigan public schools read at the state's level of proficiency. 28%. We know that for a fact. And I and I said, what what what would happen, you know, if you found some kid who's being homeschooled and he's below grade level? What would be the solution that you would recommend? And they all say, well, put him in public school. Okay. Put him in public school where he's just part of 72% of the students who are not at grade level. And so, yeah, the rank hypocrisy is amazing. And I I reference, a couple of court cases where parents had their child go through public school for k through 12, graduated, couldn't read their own diploma, functionally illiterate, and the parents sued the school district and said, hey.
Israel Wayne [00:43:48]:
This is breach of contract. You promised to educate my child. You didn't do it. I want financial remuneration. And the state supreme courts in multiple states made rulings against the parents and said that, the public schools have no legal obligation to educate children. The public school system only has a responsibility to provide and maintain a system of public schools.
Erin [00:44:16]:
When I read that, I was just in shock. I mean, not shocked, but
Israel Wayne [00:44:19]:
If they provide and maintain a system of public schools, that is the full entirety of their legal responsibility. And if a child is in a public school, government school, and they're not learning, the court said that's because the parents aren't doing their job at home. So, legally, a school can never be prosecuted for educational neglect. A homeschooling parent can, hypocritically.
Erin [00:44:43]:
Right.
Israel Wayne [00:44:44]:
But as soon as that school goes that child goes back in the government schools, they can do worse in the government schools, and there's nothing they have complete immunity legally. And so, yeah, there's a phenomenal double standard there. And, you know, I I think that, again, you have to look at all the research over the last forty years. But when you look at the product that's being produced from the private home education movement and the government school system, it's just not even close. And it's been that way for forty years that homeschooling schooling produces a better academic product. And that's not why I home school my children. I home school my children because I think God requires it of me, and because I actually wanna have a relationship with my kids. But it's sort of like that Matthew six thirty three passage where it says seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these other things will be added unto you.
Israel Wayne [00:45:27]:
The academic success is sort of the, the frosting with the cherry on top.
Erin [00:45:31]:
Yeah. So as we're talking through all of these things, I'm thinking about what about the Christian parent who's heard this conversation, who understands their child is receiving a subpar education that is actually tearing their child closer towards that face divide here, what would your advice be to them practically on how to to get started other than pick up your book, Answers for Homeschooling, because it's a really great place to start.
Israel Wayne [00:45:55]:
Well, in terms of information, and I appreciate that, I think I think my book is a great starting point. In fact, the the former president of, HSLDA said something like, you know, this is the the one resource that you would have to go to to get all your questions answered in one spot. Right. But, also, I would recommend that people get in touch with Homeschool Legal Defense Association. That's HSLDA.org. They have wonderful resources on, the laws in your state and helping you understand more about homeschooling. And then your state homeschool organizations. Almost every state has one.
Israel Wayne [00:46:25]:
And, you can find those at homeschoolfreedom.com, and they have a link to all the different state homeschool associations. So you wanna get plugged into, your state association. And then, then from there, once you get in touch with your state association, they often will have a network of, local co ops and homeschool support groups. So you can get plugged in with local families who are homeschooling that are field trips, that'll have activities, and lots of, ways that parents just get together and help encourage each other and share the burden. And, so I think those are some great ways to begin, homeschooling. And there's there's lots of great curriculum out there. If you have a homeschool conference that takes place in your state, by all means, go to that. That's one of the best ways to see the curriculum firsthand.
Israel Wayne [00:47:12]:
It's one of the best ways to hear speakers who can teach you more about homeschooling and equip you. I think, going to a homeschool conference is one of the most empowering things that you can possibly do, for your homeschool family and get connected with other families who attend there. So those are some of my top, tips for how to get started with, the homeschooling process.
Erin [00:47:32]:
Excellent. Well, I I thank you for coming on here. I would say what in closing would be if you could say one thing to help Christian dads, particularly when it comes to raising your kids with homeschooling and whatnot, what would be your piece of advice for dads?
Israel Wayne [00:47:48]:
And I would say that you will regret the money you spend on your boat. You may live to spend you may live to regret a lot of the money you spend on other things and time you spend on other things. I never hear an older parent ever say, I just wish I hadn't spent so much time with my kids and invested so much in them. No one ever says that. They say, I wish I hadn't worked as much. I wish I had, I wish I'd spent more time with my kids when they were growing up. I wish I'd had done more with them. I never hear anybody say, I just I feel like I wasted my life because I spent too much time with my kids.
Israel Wayne [00:48:19]:
And so I would encourage you to to take respond that responsibility seriously. That's a short window. We get one shot out of this. And the one thing that that no one else can give your kid is you. And that's the thing they want most. They want you. They don't want a billion activities. They don't want more money.
Israel Wayne [00:48:37]:
They want you. And, I just don't think you'll ever regret that. So, again, I'd encourage you guys. If you, are looking at getting my books, I'll say this. I encourage you to grab them from our website if you're willing to. We actually have a a bundle. It's called Christian Education Bundle, I think it is, that has my answers and education for does God have an opinion book that's discounted on our website. It's familyrenewal.0rg/store.
Israel Wayne [00:49:00]:
And, I'll personally sign any books that you buy from our web store. A lot of people don't know this, but most people it's like 85% of all books are bought on Amazon. But if you buy my book new on Amazon and it's, like, $13, I'll get, like, 85¢ for that as an author. Mhmm. Amazon keeps almost all the profits, and that's why they own the world. Right. And so, if you can, I always encourage people to, buy from the author themselves or from a Christian publisher or from a Christian retailer, even christianbook.com? You know, get get it from a Christian retailer, a Christian publisher, or the author themselves. You know, Amazon owns the world, and I get how convenient that is.
Israel Wayne [00:49:38]:
But seriously, for us as authors, this is how we make a living. And so, I I encourage you to, and and so that's one of the reasons we we'll sign the books on our web site, is because, we wanna give you a thank you Yes. For, for purchasing directly from us.
Erin [00:49:53]:
We appreciate that. And then you've also got a 10% off code for our listeners. It's 10 off, and we will put that in the show notes as well. So anyone that purchases directly from familyrenewal.org will get that discount as well. So, again, where can we find you on social media if we wanted to contact you, for speaking events and things like that? Or do you wanna give us a little rundown of your speaking schedule so people can connect with you?
Israel Wayne [00:50:18]:
Sure. So my speaking website is my name, israelwayne.com. And it's I s r a e l, israel wayne dot com. Again, familyrenewal.org is our main website. I'm on all the social media platforms, as either Israel Wayne or Family Renewal. We do have our own podcast. Wherever you listen to podcasts, it's just called Family Renewal. Or you can go to YouTube and look up Family Renewal Podcast and subscribe to our YouTube channel to watch the video versions.
Israel Wayne [00:50:46]:
We would love to have you sign up on our email list, which you can do at familyrenewal.org. There's a pop up that comes up there. That's a great way for us to let you know when we're speaking in your area. I do speak at conferences all over The United States, and so, best way to get notified is to be on the email list, and then we'll always send you an email, let you know when we're speaking in your area.
Erin [00:51:06]:
Excellent. Well, thank you for coming on today, Israel, and, I look forward to hearing more from you. I also listen to your podcast as well, so it's it's really nice to hear, you and your lovely wife, Brooke's perspective on all things homeschooling as second generation homeschoolers and people who are movers and shakers in the homeschool community now. You know, I think that that's really important for people to to understand is that this is a lifestyle. This is a family decision. This is a generational decision that you make. And, you know, like you said, kids don't want more stuff. They want more parents' time.
Erin [00:51:40]:
And, the best way that I think as Christians that we can offer that is through choosing home education. So really appreciate you, and all the work that you do with your ministry. Thank you.
Israel Wayne [00:51:50]:
Well, thank you, Erin. I I think you're one of the bright new voices in the homeschool movement, and I'm very encouraged with what you're doing and the stance that you're taking on some of these difficult issues. You know, there's old tired voices like mine, and we need some fresh voices. And so I think you're one of the, rising stars in our movement. So appreciate you and what you do.
Erin [00:52:09]:
Yeah. Thank you. To learn more about booking one on one or group homeschool coaching sessions with us, upcoming events, see our speaking schedule, or to get access to more resources, be sure to check out our website, www.showmehomeschool.com, and sign up for our weekly newsletter. You can also follow us on Instagram at show.me.homeschool, on Pinterest at show me homeschool, or email us at info@showmehomeschool.com. This episode was sponsored by Podcast with Faith, our favorite Christian podcast production company.